Images

Inside the Artist’s Studio with Kathleen Sherin: Printmaker

U D, Carborundum Monoprint, 19.5 x 9.5 inches

U D, Carborundum Monoprint, 19.5 x 9.5 inches

The prints I have on display at Main Street Arts are part of a new series called “Imeasurable Blues”.

Assembled Carborundum and Collagraphic Monoprint, 25 x 15 inches

Assembled Carborundum and Collagraphic Monoprint, 25 x 15 inches

I create my prints in my studio in the TriMain Building as a resident artist in Buffalo Arts Studio  and larger prints in the printshop at the University of Buffalo through a community access program called ePIC ( Experimental Print Imaging Center).

My studio and press at Buffalo Arts Studio

My studio and press at Buffalo Arts Studio

I always work in series.  Each series is a conversation. These conversations all seem to have a common thread, to explore and express conflicts and contrasts of the physical and mental aspects of being human – or  of the rational and intuitive self. In this current series I have ventured past the border of self to the resonant forces found in nature.

My 10 second statement: “Ideas derived from Biology clash with ideas about Psychology, are mediated by Observation and Experience then completed on an Etching Press”.

The press is an essential tool and partner in creation and  involvement in the process of printing is essential to my creative thinking.

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The prints in this exhibition are Carborundum and Collagraphic Monprints.

A Carborundum  print is made from a calligraphic process in which the image is painted on the plate with carborundum (a gritty abrasive powder) mixed with acrylic medium. Once dried the plate is inked wiped and printed.

The Process of Making a Carborundum Print

A drawing with a liquid acrylic mixed with carborundum in made on  a polystyrene (plastic) plate.

Making the plate -

This plate has combination of lines made with Carborundum and lines made only with acrylic medium.

Close up of plate:

Close up of plate

Once the additions are  dry,  ink (oil-based etching ink) is rubbed onto the plate and into the textured surface of the carborundum lines until the entire plate is covered with ink.

Inking the plate

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Excess ink is wiped off with tarlatan (material like starched cheesecloth).

tarlatan

I leave much  of the ink on the plate –  and the marks in the ink by manually wiping.   It is now ready to print.

readytoprint

Dampened paper is placed over inked plate on the press bed.

wetpaperon

A rubber blanket is placed over paper to cushion and to allow the paper to mold over the raised lines on the plate.

blanket

The print is rolled through the press user pressure.

throughpress

A print is born!

printborn

A print and plate.

printandplate

Some of my prints like the following are layered pieces  - This print has ben made with 2 plates, one printed over the  other in a separate run through the press.

W T S O, Carborundum and Collagraphic Monoprint, 24 x 15 inches

W T S O, Carborundum and Collagraphic Monoprint, 24 x 15 inches

This is my thinking and working wall at the studio – I am usually working on several overlapping series at once.

workingwall

This is the other part of my studio filled with prints.  BAS is an open studio space; please feel free to visit.

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Though I have lived and worked in Buffalo NY for many years, I am originally from Greenwich NY.  I moved to Buffalo to attend college first to study nursing (BS in 1972) then continued on to study and make art (BA Empire Sate College 1981, MFA in painting at UB 1985).

I studied intaglio as a post-graduate and  learned traditional printmaking methods. I abandoned these soon to discover through trial and error - simpler materials and more direct, less chemical-mediated ways of working.

My prints are unique, one-of-a-kind, hand-pulled pieces that blend traditions from painting, printmaking and collage. They contain a combination of direct non-chemically-mediated printmaking methods that include my personal spin on collagraphic, carborundum printing and monoprint techniques.


Stop by Main Street Arts to see Kathleen Sherin’s prints in our current exhibition the Upstate New York Printmaking Invitational (runs through October 7). View her work online at www.ksherin.com

Take a look at our previous Inside the Artist’s Studio blog post by printmaker Barbara McPhail.

Inside The Artist’s Studio with Andrea Scofield Olmstead

Andrea Olmstead Turtle 24” x 16” x 16” earthenware milk paint, wax

Andrea Olmstead, “Turtle”, 24” x 16” x 16”, earthenware, milk paint, wax

I grew up in the Florida Panhandle and remain influenced by the color and texture of the natural landscape. Rusty iron fences, brick sidewalks, tin roofs, and giant oak trees overwhelm the senses. Lush foliage is always on the verge of taking over, and everything quickly decays. I used imagery from the Florida Gulf Coast Box Turtle to carve the turtle pattern in the pants of my sculpture.

I sculpt with clay because it reminds me of the red earth from the South. It feels humble in my hands and it in turn makes me feel humble. It accepts textures either pressed, carved, or added to and allows me to sculpt the human figure. It connects me to civilizations past and present and unites me with people who are obsessed with this demanding and exacting material.

Thirteen of Gian Lorenzo Bernini’s delicate terra cotta sketches can be seen at the Fogg Art Museum in Cambridge, MA. These  quick sculptural models, complete with fingerprints, remind me how powerful clay is in its gestural form .

Bernini, 1598-1680, “Angel with the Superscription”, Fogg Art Museum, Cambridge, MA

I look to Jean Antoine Houdon  for guidance in anatomy, especially the eyes, which are full of life.

Jean Antoine Houdon  Louise Brongniart 1779, marble

Jean Antoine Houdon, “Louise Brongniart”, 1779, marble

Kathe Kollwitz’s powerfully dark and emotionally tender drawings and sculptures guide me  empathetically, technically, and conceptually. The layered textures in her work are permanently etched in my mind.

Kathe Kollwitz,  Mother with Dead Son Neue Wache Museum, Berlin

Kathe Kollwitz, “Mother with Dead Son”, Neue Wache Museum, Berlin 

The contemporary sculptor Louise Bourgeois’s conceptually driven work causes me to  address my own childhood experiences.

Louise Bourgeois, 1911-2010

Louise Bourgeois, 1911-2010

“Turtle” is a portrait of a boy as he sits down to play, equally strong and vulnerable. I work from photos and have the model sit for brief periods.

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leather hard stage

leather hard stage

I use charcoal because the medium is humble and simple but able to produce a wide variety of marks. It allows me to be aggressive or delicately whimsical. I often draw to work out the textures on paper before the labor of sculpting them. In the drawing below, the turtle pattern is worked out in the shirt.

Andrea Olmstead  Turtle charcoal 24" x 18" 2016

Andrea Olmstead, “Turtle”, charcoal, 24″ x 18″, 2016

I work with large rectangular coils that allow me to press, carve, and pound into shape. I use a metal serrated rib tool for scoring and smoothing, a fettling knife for cutting and shaping, and calipers for measuring.

large rectangular coils

large rectangular coils

I start by building a structural base that can withstand the weight of the sculpture. I continue to add interior struts where I know the clay might cave in on itself, and I give the clay time to set up in order to hold the next couple of layers. Laguna EM 10 G is an earthenware that fires white and has strength. The grog particles are fine and don’t get in the way when I carve textures, but give the clay the strength it needs.

structural base

structural base, legs and hips

I sculpted the head separately and used the knee to help support the weight. It was important for me to work out this structural detail  through sketches and photos before I began the sculpture.

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head using the knee as a support

I smooth areas with a rib tool and carve textures with a pin tool.

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A clear wax protects the finish, and milk paint highlights the texture  in the pants.

Andrea Olmstead Turtle 24” x 16” x 16” earthenware milk paint, wax

Andrea Olmstead, “Turtle”, 24” x 16” x 16”,  earthenware, milk paint, wax


Stop by Main Street Arts to see Andrea’s sculpture “Turtle” in our current exhibition The Human Figure (runs through July 1). View her work online at www.andreascofieldolmstead.com

Take a look at our previous Inside the Artist’s Studio blog post by artist Kate Fisher.

Inside the Artist’s Studio with Nick Marshall

Hi everyone, my name is Nick Marshall. My recent work, _e_scapes,  is included in Main Street Art’s exhibition “Ink and Paper” and this post will hopefully give you a little more insight to my practice.

_e_scapes started with a series of photographs I made in 2012-13. The images depict found snapshots of seaside vacations that are floating in a chromatic pool of color sampled from the air or water in the vernacular images via the eye dropper tool.

_e_scape

_e_scape

_e_scapes

_e_scape

Shortly after making the photographs I started on a series of paintings that would eventually be exhibited under the same title and hang parallel to the image based works. I didn’t have a studio at the time so I was working out of the living room in my one bedroom apartment.

This would be a good time to mention what I do with the majority of my hours during the week. I’ve been working at the George Eastman Museum since 2010 and was promoted to manager of exhibitions and programs in 2013. In addition to overseeing the installation of the museums exhibitions, I work closely with the curators and creative director to design and layout the shows.  This usually includes us looking through swatch books and laughing at some of the absurdly named paint colors. A few of my personal favorites, “Grandma’s Sweater 787″ and “Applesauce Cake 316-5″.

But really what was of interest to me was the way that the paint manufactures were assigning names and numbers to colors that were intended to represent nature, specifically air and water.

After an exhibition of the work at the Hartnett Gallery in Rochester, Tate Shaw, the director of Visual Studies Workshop, invited me to do a month long residency at VSW with the goal of making a book that would include some of the sketches I’d made for the paintings. I had never made a book before but I’d always wanted to so I jumped at the opportunity. At first my progress was a little slow. It was very difficult for me to take the sketches off the wall and not think about them that way. Once I got them in somewhat of a book form though the sequencing became really exciting and everything started to come together.

VSW Project Space

VSW Project Space (March 2015)

VSW Project Space (March 2015)

VSW Project Space (March 2015)

I also used my time at the residency to think about another series I’d been working on of straight images that I knew were related to color and the landscape but couldn’t quite figure out how to tie everything together. Seeing them in the space with the paint swatches made everything click and I began incorporating the swatches. This work is still in progress but it was an added bonus to working in the studio and being able to see these intersections of my work that I hadn’t previously.

VSW Project Space (March 2015)

VSW Project Space (March 2015)

VSW Project Space (March 2015)

VSW Project Space (March 2015)

At the end of the residency I had produced my first draft of the book.  Subsequent drafts would not include the suitcase images and the final version of the book has a different cover that was designed by Travis Johansen and I am MUCH happier with it.

1st draft of _e_scapes book

1st draft of _e_scapes book

1st draft of _e_scapes book

1st draft of _e_scapes book

The book starts with Dawn’s Early Light C57-1 and progresses through the day, enduring a rainstorm with the sun eventually coming back out and fading into a Peaceful Night 590F-7.

page layout from "_e_scapes"

page layout from “_e_scapes”

page layout from "_e_scapes"

page layout from “_e_scapes”

page layout from "_e_scapes"

page layout from “_e_scapes”

page layout from "_e_scapes"

page layout from “_e_scapes”

I hope you can make it out to see Ink and Paper at Main Street Arts. There are a lot of really great books and I’m grateful to be a part of the exhibition.

View Nick’s artwork online at www.n-marshall.com. Stop by Main Street Arts to see his artwork in our current exhibition, Ink and Paper (runs through Friday, March 25). Take a look at our previous Inside the Artist’s Studio blog post by book artist Amanda Chestnut.

Inside the Artist’s Studio with Chris Oliver

I grew up in southern New Hampshire, which is an amazing mix of idyllic small towns, strip malls, and beautiful pine forests infiltrated by power lines and dirt bike trails.  I have to stop writing about New Hampshire or I’ll never get to anything else.

After high school I moved a couple of hours west and attended Marlboro College in Vermont, which is a tiny school (250 students) on a hill, basically in the middle of the woods.  I graduated from there with a BA in Sculpture.  The bulk of that work was in clay, which I loved at the time for its immediacy.  By this I mean you start with something that is almost formless, or I guess just very malleable, you learn about its material qualities and from there can push it in so many directions with almost nothing beyond your hands.  In hindsight, the work I made looked very old fashioned.  At the time I loved looking at people like Noguchi or Barbara Hepworth.

Chris Oliver with his piece "Double Beaumont" in our Structurally Speaking exhibition. Best in Show!

Chris Oliver with his piece “Double Beaumont” in our Structurally Speaking exhibition. Best in Show!

After finishing that degree I stuck around Marlboro for a few years working for various local potters and doing some carpentry.  During that time I lived in a cabin in the woods, which was incredible.  You had such a direct experience with everything, and it was always changing how you did things based on the specific time of year.  That cabin was also my first remodeling project, which has become pretty central to my life and art since.

I rented space in an unused dairy barn for $15 a month and built a tiny studio out of metal roofing I had found at the dump.  My friends called it a “meat locker” because it was a freezing cold, tiny galvanized enclosure that I’d work in through the winter, usually at night.  We didn’t have a metal shop at Marlboro and this was something that I had always been interested in, so that’s what this space was dedicated to.  I had a small welder and a few basic tools and made a bunch of work that again looked antiquated. By this time I had moved up a decade or two and was looking a lot at Chillida, who often used steel like clay in some really beautiful ways, as well as looking at Anthony Caro.

I used these pieces to apply to graduate school.  Looking back, I’m pretty sure I didn’t get in based on the work I submitted (although I probably would have if it had been the 1960’s because I had a good design sense, crafted things well, and was pretty inventive), but probably based on the few photos of the “meat locker” I’d left the chair of the Sculpture department (Ed Mayer) at SUNY Albany.  My guess is that he saw those and thought “this guy seems really determined and he’ll probably do something good here if we can get him to not be so stubborn.”

I spent three years at SUNY Albany in the MFA program, which was amazing.  Now I was looking at was from the 60s and 70’s (of course!).  Michael Heizer drawing in the desert with his dirt bike, Smithson and all of this entropic Earth Art, and also got really into Gordon Matta-Clark and how he would use houses as a material.

While I was in Albany my thinking about art began to shift from it being something fairly separate from “regular life” to being just another part of it.  As this pertained to sculpture this meant a shift from making autonomous objects to things that directly interacted with the world.  Of course, artists had been doing this for sixty or eighty years, but I really had to work through some pretty strict formalism and still think that it’s so important.

I began working with things that were right around me that I had always been interested in but hadn’t used as art material before.  I made this very small building that filled itself with water when it rained because of the shape of its roof.  It’s size was similar to a springhouse I had collected water from daily when I’d lived in that cabin in Vermont, but its function was purely to create a space for aesthetic experience: it had a hole that you could stick your head in and another that you could stick your hand in to touch the water.

3'x3'x4', wood, cement, steel

The Salt House, wood, cement, steel, 3′x3′x4′, 2005

Inside the Salt House

 

Another was this funny red and white viewing apparatus on skis that you could drag around to isolate parts of the ground and look at.  It looked like a Radio Flyer straight from the 1950’s, and was meant to be used by some family interested in aesthetic experience, but saying that this experience is no different than some other activity like sledding or riding around in a wagon.

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Nine years ago I moved to Ithaca where I’ve worked as a carpenter off and on, but primarily help run a large wood/metal/digital shop here at Cornell where art and architecture students build just about anything you could possibly think of, and many things you or I would never think of based on the sheer quantity of incredibly creative people that come through the program.  During this time I have adopted “the digital” in the form of 3-d modeling in the computer, 3-d printing, CNC milling and laser cutting.  Sometimes I use this technology for purely practical purposes. This summer I’ll be milling foam molds for a series of large model swimming pools that I’ll be making with fiberglass and also plaster molds for a 48 pack of full-scale elongated ashtrays that I’ll be slip casting in ceramic.

Other times this technology is conceptually part of the piece.  Last year I printed a stack of picnic tables as the state parks stack them for winter.  I loved the idea of taking this most basic American form, the picnic table, and putting it through this cutting edge process.

The Picnic Tables

 

photo 1Double Beaumont (the piece in Structurally Speaking at Main Street Arts) was conceived in this fashion. I found the first ranch floor plan that came up in a Google search, used this to generate a Rhino model (3-d digital drawing) and starting messing with it in the computer.  I then used this drawing to go full circle and build the piece with pine and nails.

Double Beaumont, V-Ray rendered Rhino model, dimensions variable, 2013

Double Beaumont, V-Ray rendered Rhino model, dimensions variable, 2013

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Double Beaumont, Pine, Nails, 5'x'5x8', 2015

Double Beaumont, Pine, Nails, 5′x’5×8′, 2015 

You can stop by the gallery to see Chris Oliver’s sculpture, “Double Beaumont” in our current exhibition Structurally Speaking. Chris’ piece won Best in Show!

Take a look at our previous Inside the Artist’s Studio blog post by Rochester painter and sculptor Zach Dietl.

Inside the Artist’s Studio with Jeanne Beck: Coming Home Through Creating

www.jeannebeck.com

Jeanne Beck at work in her studio in Rochester, NY’s Hungerford Building

It seems to me my whole life has been a slow, steady evolution of coming home to myself. I suspect a lot of women of my generation feel that way. My earlier life didn’t offer a lot of stimulation or opportunity to study music or dance or art, all of which interested me greatly, but I did read voraciously. I fantasized about writing novels and started writing short stories at age 12, but then I became absorbed in teen-age concerns. I turned to keeping a journal, which I wrote in faithfully from 7-12th grade. I’ve done personal journaling in some form for most of my life and have a storage box filled with composition notebooks and more recently, sketchbooks too.

Book of the Ancients 6, 18" x 18", mixed media collage, gold leaf, acrylic paint. Cut, collaged, screen-printed and stenciled.

Book of the Ancients 6, 18″ x 18″, mixed media collage, gold leaf, acrylic paint. Cut, collaged, screen-printed and stenciled.

When I decided at mid-life to become a visual artist, I made a total commitment to it. Lose, win or draw, I have invested myself fully in my own creative potential. And, as a result, this midlife adventure has become the most passionate, committed period of my life. Since I began exploring visual art, I have been drawn to combine more than one medium or techniques, as well as create multi-layered surfaces.

The Writing in Air pieces utilize a variety of processes and techniques to create a dimensional , cut and manipulated surface that suggests  cursive handwriting. Purchased by SUNY Geneseo for MacVittie Student Union.

The Writing in Air pieces utilize a variety of processes and techniques to create a dimensional , cut and manipulated surface that suggests cursive handwriting. Purchased by SUNY Geneseo for MacVittie Student Union.

Melding media and techniques to express a concept drives most of my choices. So I might stitch thread structures and dip them in paper pulp, for example. Layering and combining materials and methods is a fluid process and varies with each new idea. I like to envision my pieces accumulating layers over time and bearing the marks of use and age to build their own personal history.

Distressing the leafed surface with layers of acrylic paints and screen printed texts creates a patina of aging. Private collection, Boston, MA.

Distressing the leafed surface with layers of acrylic paints and screen printed texts creates a patina of aging. Private collection, Boston, MA.

Seemingly random numbers cut in fiberglass screening punctuate the aged surface of this piece. They are a list of street numbers from the houses where I've lived over the course of my life. They are as I remember them, but I have no idea whether the memories are accurate. Purchased by SUNY Geneseo for MacVittie Student Union.

Seemingly random numbers cut in fiberglass screening punctuate the aged surface of this piece. They are a list of street numbers from the houses where I’ve lived over the course of my life. They are as I remember them, but I have no idea whether the memories are accurate. Purchased by SUNY Geneseo for MacVittie Student Union.

I am drawn to aged surfaces and tend to try to and create them in whatever medium or technique I’m using. Rust, decay, and layers peeling away attract me. They also relate to my interests in memory and aging and what happens to personal histories over time.

Most of the scattered  images on this piece refer to The Palmer Method of Cursive Handwriting instruction. Once  a part of elementary school curriculum, cursive handwriting  has become almost obsolete.

Most of the scattered images on this piece refer to The Palmer Method of Cursive Handwriting instruction. Once a part of elementary school curriculum, cursive handwriting has become almost obsolete.

The earliest concept for my current series of language-inspired pieces started in 2007. I had done extensive research on Etruscan and other forms of ancient writing remnants and the marks  intrigued me as visual elements. Then my focus shifted to an interest in 19th and 20th century found journals, diaries and bits of cursive writing.

This work lists all the names of the teachers I can remember from my elementary school in Pittsburgh, PA. Book of the Ancients 9: Bethel Park Elementary, won a prestigious 2013 Niche Award.

This work lists all the names of the teachers I can remember from my elementary school in Pittsburgh, PA. Book of the Ancients 9: Bethel Park Elementary, won a prestigious 2013 Niche Award.

Green World IIMy metallic leaf series began in 2011 with the idea of “fluttering pages.” The exploration of ancient texts and languages to gather ideas for this series led me to an unexpected realization, “ancient” is a relative term. To someone entering adulthood today, the 1950’s and 60’s seem ancient. Amused by that recognition, the first works in this series focus on remembered bits from my childhood. We often refer to ‘turning a page’, ‘ getting on the same page’, ‘starting a new or closing an old chapter of our lives’ in our everyday conversations. These pieces offer a visual take on such ideas.

Green World II is a new organically-inspired, dimensional  work with layered kozo fibers over a  richly textured, painted surface.

Green World II is a new organically-inspired, dimensional work with layered kozo fibers over a richly textured, painted surface.

The pages series still doesn’t feel finished and I will continue to work on new ideas. However, I am also working on a new series of organic, two and three-dimensional works using handmade paper, pulp and wire armatures.

You can see more of Jeanne’s work in our current exhibition, Solid Gold, or visit her website: www.jeannebeck.com.

Check out our previous Inside the Artist’s Studio blog post by artist Colleen Pendry.

Inside the Artist’s Studio with Sarah Sutton

Interstice Series on the way to Main Street Arts to be installed!

Interstice Series on the way to Main Street Arts to be installed!

I am originally from the central Appalachian mountain region in northeastern Pennsylvania. My ancestors on both sides were immigrant coal miners from Eastern Europe. The area I grew up in now rests over flooded and burning mines and is surrounded by abandoned coal breakers and shake piles. This industrial world that had once meant so much for so many people was, to me, a dead metaphorall around and underneath memeanwhile life went on.

fire-in-a-coal-mine-under-centralia-pa-irish-640x480

This intermeshing of worlds and realities continues to inspire me. I am specifically interested in how people internalize and pass on socio-historical traumas through generations, such as the Knox coalmine disaster in 1959. In a single day, illegal mining broke through the riverbed, wiping out the local anthracite coal mining industry. Decades later the consequences of that single day are still palpable- in the landscape as well as in the people who once inhabited it. Through the paintings in this body of work, I create a visual language that depicts the complexity of perceptionhow historical and internal experiences interweave and intertwine.

In this blog entry I am going to explore three thoughts on representation and abstraction and address how I see these categories as changing in the digital age; a conversation that greatly affects my work.

1. Excess and Overload as Abstraction

Typically, abstraction has been associated with reduction or abbreviationreducing something to its “essence”. However, I am interested in a different kind of abstraction. When there is an overload of information as with media saturation we do not process a “whole” or “essence” at all. The sheer quantity of images and objects creates a type of pattern-based processing, making it more difficult to focus on individual components and promoting more of a time-based processing. This is explained by Jeffrey Rian in the article, The Generation Game:

 A child born into the electronic age learns his or her way into the world under the influence of disembodied voices and images, piecing together a world in collage pattern that absorbs ‘everywheres’ and everywhens’ into a cacophonous present. With electronics, sensory life is made more complicated because of the abundance of unrelated sounds and images… Experiencing free floating and unanalyzed images, which are integrated as tactile experiences, may offer a level of familiarity, or low level stimulus that engenders a variety of memories…

-Jeffrey Rian (The Generation Game)

Wall of thoughts and inspiration

Wall of thoughts and inspiration

2. The Visibility of the Invisible

Spaces that once only existed as imaginary are all over the Internetfrom hidden corners of the Amazon, live broadcasts of acts of terrorism, webcams of outer space, to videos of surgeries showing the intricacies of the internal body.

After the advent of photography, painting began to explore the notion of the “unknown”internal worlds, complex and amoebic states, and images of the “otherworldly and surreal”. Since almost everything can be “seen” online, it has become more and more difficult to imagine the “unknown” as a singular image.

In my work, painting becomes a way to envision relationships that are seemingly impossible to imagine (even and especially on the internet), because they involve time, different perceptual and sensory information, and the subjective. Ultimately, I am interested in making an image that captures how internal experience and memories are projected onto the external worldwhich becomes personal and involves both recognizable and non-recognizable imagery.

Supplies in the studio

Supplies in the studio

3. Legibility of Illegible

In his book, Six Stories from the End of Representation, James Elkins contrasts the use of the blur in art to what it means in astronomy. Where artists often intentionally blur to obscure an image, astronomers look at skies full of blurs that have never been seen “in focus”. In fact, the paradigm of being “in focus” or legible vs. “out of focus” or illegible does not apply when looking at the sky, as sharpening can cause a loss of information. By moving pixels closer together or turning the lens to focus on one area, contours and shapes that exist in the spaces in between are lost. In this case, the quality of being out of focus leaves the register of human perception all together, and clarity does not necessarily mean seeing something better. I am interested in the paradox of making information less legible, less recognizable, and less reliant on gestalt principles in order to expand on ways of seeing.

 

See our previous post: A Studio Visit with Sarah Sutton